Citizen Bitcoin Podcast Features Cory Klippsten of GiveBitcoin

GiveBitcoin founder Cory Klippsten joined Brady of the Citizen Bitcoin podcast to talk about creating the next wave of Bitcoiners, the importance of education on that journey, and the future of Bitcoin in the context of the current macroeconomic situation.

Listen the full episode HERE or enjoy the transcript below.

Brady:                  Welcome to the Citizen Bitcoin podcast. I’m Brady, and I’m sharing my journey learning Bitcoin, hoping it makes yours a bit easier. What’s up out there Bitcoiners, hope you all are doing well. It’s another week here at the Dawn of the Bitcoin Renaissance. Thanks for being here with me today, and I’ve got a great one with Cory Klippsten for you. He’s the founder of GiveBitcoin. I’m excited to share this conversation with you and also excited to be repping GiveBitcoin. As you may have seen already on Twitter, GiveBitcoin is the first official sponsor of the pod. So, big thanks to Cory for supporting my work and GiveBitcoin team for investing in Bitcoin education in general

Brady:                  GiveBitcoin is creating a clever new way to turn your pre coiner friends and family into well educated hodlers. You can give to them Timelocked Bitcoin, it’s Timelocked for at least a year, up to five years, and you’re hodler to be friend or family member will receive, month by month for that first year, a world-class Bitcoin education. It is such a great idea. So, check this out. This past weekend I was talking to my dad and I told him about the sponsorship in GiveBitcoin. And that conversation ended with him asking me for some Timelocked Bitcoin and the GiveBitcoin education program for Christmas.

Brady:                  I’ve been shilling him super hard for a couple of years, and so the fact that the GiveBitcoin idea finally made him comfortable enough to take the plunge, says a ton. I’ll be giving him some Bitcoin via GiveBitcoin soon and I’ll keep you all updated on how it’s going for him. GiveBitcoin has solved that pre coiner to Bitcoiner equation. It’s Give plus Timelock plus educate equals Bitcoiner. So, check out GiveBitcoin right now. The beta was officially launched today at Okay, we’ll get into all the details and context with Cory in this conversation. So, let’s just jump right into it, here we go.

Brady:                  Let’s go, yeah. So, I am super excited to welcome Cory Klippsten to the Citizen Bitcoin podcast. Cory, how’s it going, man.

Cory Klippsten:                  Man, I’m excited to be here. I was trying to earn my citizenship.

Brady:                  You’re a sovereign citizen of Bitcoin, and you want to help a lot of people become sovereign citizens of Bitcoin. So, I’m here for that man.

Cory Klippsten:                  Yeah. No for sure. You seem to get more of the hardcore evangelists on more frequently than anybody else. You literally built this product for them, so I’m just glad to be in the company.

Brady:                  Yeah. This is going to be a great tool for the evangelists among us. Before we get too much farther, I’ve got to say a big thanks to you and GiveBitcoin for being the first sponsor of this podcast. Our mutual dedication to helping people understand what’s happening here and helping them become, like we said, good citizens of Bitcoin in this Bitcoin future we’re building, I think makes us the perfect partnership. So, I’m really happy man.

Cory Klippsten:                  Yeah, listen man, it’s important to be in these things early because sometimes they get to be a big deal and I think your trajectory is really good. I think this is like getting into Bitcoin in like 2011 or something.

Brady:                  Yeah, absolutely man. I agree completely. I think it’s going to get pretty crazy over these next few years. It’s already been crazy.

Cory Klippsten:                  We’re talking about the podcast, right?

Brady:                  Yeah. Well, and just Bitcoin in general. But yeah, the podcast too. I mean, it’s on a similar trajectory. I guess we’re all on the Bitcoin rocket ship at this point.

Cory Klippsten:                  IMB is going to ask if the Brady podcast and Bitcoin actually have co-integration with their high R-squared.

Brady:                  So far we’re pretty well co-integrated. We’re going to be able to see after the having… If the Citizen Bitcoin podcast isn’t over 55,000 downloads per episode by next Christmas, then we’ll know that the model is broken.

Cory Klippsten:                  Awesome. Well played.

Brady:                  Yeah. Let’s talk about GiveBitcoin. Let’s start with the basics, and then we can dive into some context and details behind the company. All right. So, let’s say you’re sharing an Uber with a Bitcoiner, what’s the GiveBitcoin pitch to them?

Cory Klippsten:                  Yeah, sure. So, basically we would say Give plus Timelock plus educate equals Bitcoiner. Basically, we’ve created a product that is intended to be the safest and easiest way to onboard a new coiner. And then if you unpack that, basically what we set out to do is to have the highest percentage chance of getting somebody that you care about, like friend, family, colleague, or maybe just somebody you met at a conference or something, to actually get them to take the red pill and start learning and start to want to learn for themselves. And then to have those good resources, something authoritative, something right down the middle that’s good for Bitcoin, available to them and actually spoonfed to them. Everything just came out of the genesis of that, or I should say the kernel of that idea, and then what do you need to build around that to make that happen?

Brady:                  I definitely want to get into more of the details about the product. Got a lot of questions for you there.

Cory Klippsten:                  Mm-hmm (affirmative), for sure.

Brady:                  But I’d like to get some of the context about the GiveBitcoin story, the mission. Maybe some of your… Even go back as far as… I know you have an extensive professional background, it’s really impressive. You can go back and talk about some of that if you think it’s relevant to the GiveBitcoin story. And I’d also like to hear your Bitcoin story, in general. Can you give us some of that background and bring us up to that GiveBitcoin founding moment.

Cory Klippsten:                  Yeah, yeah, for sure. Everybody has their… If we all end up in Bitcoin, you can point to a number of things that led you to get there. But at the end of the day, every human story on the globe is going to result in them becoming a Bitcoiner. So, it’s just like a [inaudible 00:06:16].

Brady:                  Great, because we’re talking about the largest market of any product, right?

Cory Klippsten:                  That’s right. Yeah, half of every transaction. So, we’re all going to use Bitcoin at some point and there’s going to be some way to construct a story out of your background, and all the different waves and jagged lines, you can draw a straight line through it in the end. I guess a few interesting nuggets where I got super into decentralization and small scale and barbell strategies and some of that by becoming obsessed with Nassim Taleb starting in 2002. So, it’s been really awesome to see him get adopted as the Bitcoin philosopher because he’s just so well aligned with all of the things that were [crosstalk 00:06:54].

Brady:                  You were an early Taleb adopter?

Cory Klippsten:                  I was an early Taleb adopter. I wish I had Taleb coin back in 2002, I’d be crushing it right now. But I did get to meet him and talk to him a little bit after he and Naval had a conversation. It was here in LA last year. So, that was a seminal moment for me, I [inaudible 00:07:10] actually both of them separately. It was awesome.

Brady:                  Wow, that’s crazy.

Cory Klippsten:                  That’s like my thought guru and my tech guru in the same place. So yeah, I was in the front row. You can see a video of me and I’m just like I’ve seen Jesus

[inaudible 00:07:24]

or something. Watching these dudes talk nerd shit is awesome.

Brady:                  That’s awesome.

Cory Klippsten:                  So, that was probably one. Another weird foundational thing that probably requires beers or whiskey TFTC style is, I was actually… I was born in the Bay Area to parents that met on Haight Ashbury and I was basically raised on a commune until I was like eight. There was no money. So, that was super interesting. I don’t even know how to start to unpack that. I’ll probably just do a whole podcast on that with somebody at some point.

Brady:                  Yeah, for sure.

Cory Klippsten:                  Yeah. But it definitely was interesting because I was a really curious kid, studied hard, and then I basically was thrust into mainstream society and public school in fifth grade. It was like Jane Goodall with the apes trying to figure it all out. I’ve always had these lens of trying to peel back and figure out what was going on. I think that’s probably why I ended up first going to journalism school trying to investigate more for undergrad. So, I have a broadcast degree and I was a really crappy local TV reporter when I was like 19 and 20 for a mid-Missouri NBC station.

Cory Klippsten:                  And then, I ended up spending a good chunk… So, I was in tech initially, I went to work for Microsoft on an early interactive television product and then decided I wanted more money. I started to get greedy living out in New York and decided to go to business school and figure out how do people actually get money because I had absolutely no concept of one makes money from my childhood. So I was like, “I don’t know, [inaudible 00:08:59] actually make money. Some people seem to have more of it. How did they get that money?”

Cory Klippsten:                  But yes, I went to University of Chicago, which is like a hotbed of econ. There are some Austrians that have rolled through there and won some Nobel’s and stuff. I was exposed a little bit there. Then I did a management consulting and private equity for seven years post business school. And it wasn’t until… I was at McKinsey & Company, which is a pretty well known consulting firm, and then I basically set up a private equity consulting firm to compete with them. Did that for a few years out of Chicago.

Cory Klippsten:                  And then in 2009, I was right out of the crisis and… It was funny because my formative career experience was being on the shaky foundation of the dot-com boom because I got to go to all those parties in New York and all the Silicon Alley, and Jason Calacanis, and all that stuff. Just so much free money everywhere and it didn’t make any sense. I spent a year running the Jaguar website for Ogilvy Interactive. It was the year of 2000. I’ve probably worked like three hours a day or something and was probably maybe in the top five performers out of a group of like 70.

Brady:                  Oh, shit.

Cory Klippsten:                  I was like, “Is this real life? This can’t be real.” It was almost with gratification that the world didn’t actually… definitely had more than a little schadenfreude with the crashing of the tech bubble because it kind of angered me that this was all there was. What was funny is I then ran to go do something that I thought was more solid, which was like, “Okay, let’s go to business school and let’s learn how the world really works, and then go into consulting.” Now all I saw was all of the companies that were on a much bigger bubble, which was the entire financial system.

Brady:                  All right.

Cory Klippsten:                  It wasn’t just dot-com, it was like everything was on shaky foundation. I just kept on trying to get on firm ground and not finding it. And then it finally clicked with me; the only thing that you can really control is when you are actually in control of something small. I think if you look at that, that’s probably why I was attracted to startups in retrospect is because you can have a lot of effect on a small business, and then as you grow it, you can either get off the train when it becomes too big or if you maintain control and have some agency, you can stick with it.

Brady:                  Totally.

Cory Klippsten:                  So, a number of my good friends from running around New York had stayed in tech that whole time and had built great companies and were really well networked, and had big exits and stuff that. And so I had a good angle, and a good lens, and a good way to network into early-stage tech.

Cory Klippsten:                  So, I went to Google first and I worked there from 2011 to 2013. Got married in late 2012, and we decided to move out to California. She wanted warm and I really don’t actually like living in SF very much. So, we came to LA, which at least was a short flight to Silicon Valley. And I had a good way to… I basically met some 1500 VCs and founders in two years at Google, which gave me the platform to jump out and mix it up in startups.

Cory Klippsten:                  So, I’m like six and a half years now into being in startups, angel investing, advising, and operating when I see a good opportunity. I was a co founder in an ad tech company from 2013 to 2015. And then this is the second one that I’ve really gone hard at as far as a startup where I’m a founder.

Brady:                  Super exciting, man. Really exciting. You’re just the exact kind of entrepreneur that we need to get in this space, and just tons of experience and bringing that experience to bear on this industry is just a great story to hear. It’s awesome. Let’s dig into your Bitcoin education a bit because this is… GiveBitcoin is not just about gifting someone Bitcoin, the larger vision is time locking that Bitcoin and then educating while that Bitcoin’s Timelocked so that by the time that Bitcoin becomes accessible, you’ve minted a new Bitcoiner. Tell me about your Bitcoin education-

Cory Klippsten:                  I think I can go. You want to just talk about it for 20 minutes and I’ll come back? That was perfect. So, my Bitcoin education… Maybe come at it from how I went wrong. So, we built this product in a lot of ways to try to save Cory from 2014 because someone gave me $50 in Bitcoin in a blockchain wallet at a tech conference. I remember the date, January 29th of 2014. And I proceeded to not read the white paper, not go down the rabbit hole and lose the key. That sucks. What a horrible missed opportunity.

Cory Klippsten:                  I have the word Bitcoin in my Gmail from 2012. I had another chance where I was helping a buddy sell off some angel and advisory stakes in a series LLC that include… He built his company before it was earned 8216. I had to put together a couple of slides about Bitcoin in that company, and this was December of 2016, and it still didn’t take. It actually took the noise from the Ethereum run-up, basically, only the social pressure of… or just like the social signaling of some really smart VCs that I respected jumping into the space and then all the noise around consensus in May of 2017 is what finally got me.

Cory Klippsten:                  May 23rd, I remember it was just one phone call that I had scheduled and I just heard the noise in the background and the fact that this guy quit one of the best in VC. And it was just mixing it up in “crypto” is what made me start down the rabbit hole.

Brady:                  What kind of resources and people did you find most helpful?

Cory Klippsten:                  Well, I guess I did read the white paper in that first week, so that was great. Got a little bit of a foundation there. It’s funny, a lot of people talk about what’s the lens through you see this? I definitely was seeing it through a tech lens. I do a lot of work with marketplaces, and platforms, and SAS companies, in particular. Trying to create marketplaces and platforms out of SAS companies has been kind of a specialty.

Cory Klippsten:                  So, I was super attracted to the flavor du jour in 2017 of like you can create these Airbnb ecosystems that have their… what I would now call a friction token, but their native token, and incentivize everybody to participate in this ecosystem. That’s the writing that I was doing for myself at the time. I have 60 pages of total garbage that I would burn if it wasn’t on a hard drive because it’s just so dumb now in retrospect. But I was really convinced-

Brady:                  We’ve all been there, man.

Cory Klippsten:                  … at the time that there was maybe something there. I saw it very much through sign summer 2017 up, summer 2017 Cory should have been an internet union square ventures or something. I was being spoon-fed that stuff and I was buying it. So, I basically shit coined with my time. Thankfully, the core of it was always Bitcoin, Bitcoin was all that I was actually stacking. But basically, it wasn’t until probably March of 2018, the start of the winter, that I essentially accepted Bitcoin into my life and forsook all others.

Brady:                  Took the pledge to devote your life to-

Cory Klippsten:                  Basically.

Brady:                  … the one true coin.

Cory Klippsten:                  The funny thing, which I have talked about publicly before is at that time, I was already sitting in a seat as president and chief investment officer of a large-ish crypto fund that had stakes and a bunch ICOs, and I had done the Everipedia deal where they took the $30 million equity investment from block one. It helped robot cash, which is like a steam PC gaming competitor, like sore through whether they should do a utility token and they ended up just doing an equity deal and using more of a point system.

Cory Klippsten:                  So, I was definitely shit coining crazy, and then it just clicked for me. I don’t even remember what the nail in the coffin was for me as far as not wanting to read another white paper ever again other than the Bitcoin one. It probably just came down to understanding that security was everything and that anything

[inaudible 00:17:48]

… Basically, it wasn’t worth doing a public blockchain unless it was money and until we came up with something else that was valuable enough. That was the argument that really resonated with me is that it just didn’t make sense to do one of these unless it was mine.

Brady:                  Yeah, you just use a database, man, just with my SQL. It’s all you need basically.

Cory Klippsten:                  Basically.

Brady:                  Yeah. For almost all of these ICOs.

Cory Klippsten:                  Yeah, yeah, yeah. It’s interesting.

Brady:                  What do you think about-

Cory Klippsten:                  No, I think some of them are probably-

Brady:                  Go ahead.

Cory Klippsten:                  I was just going to say some of them have a future, but the future is actually more airline miles or something like that. You certainly can have a token in an ecosystem because that already exists, but you haven’t invented anything new and you don’t need a blockchain for it. You can use one if you want to, but it’s not secure. It’s going to be relatively centralized compared to Bitcoin and it’s not going to drive this insane market cap value in the longterm because it’s just points.

Brady:                  Yeah. If you’re getting like American Airlines points, you don’t need a blockchain to prove the scarcity of that point. American Airlines is in control of those tokens or whatever those points. So they’re just going to live on… A private database is all you need. What do you think about Liquid and RGB tokens on lightning and stuff that? Do you think that… Can you imagine any use for those? Obviously Liquid has an interexchange use case, which is pretty well proven at this point. Like is launching a token.

Cory Klippsten:                  I think you and I have both been privy to a lot of back and forth about that one over the last several days.

Brady:                  Yeah. We were talking about on Telegram earlier. What’s your take?

Cory Klippsten:                  I don’t care.

Brady:                  I don’t either.

Cory Klippsten:                  [inaudible 00:19:33] so just heads down, I’m like, “I don’t have enough time to just think about Bitcoin and what it means.” I think you’ve seen some of the posts that I’ve been doing trying to think through how this all plays out in the long-term, because it’s like that is really what I’m concerned about because I have a family, and I’m an entrepreneur, and I’m somewhat hinged to the success of Bitcoin. I’m really thinking about system-level threats most of the day. I’m just trying to alleviate any potential downside, even if it’s only 10% that the US government decides to outlaw Bitcoin, I want to make sure that goes from 10% down to 0.01%. So, spreading mass adoption to me and getting red pilling the most number of people, I actually see that as a stronger imperative than anything else because I believe in protecting the downside.

Brady:                  Yeah, that’s a great way to put it, man.

Cory Klippsten:                  Yeah. I think a well-known hedge fund that knows the space well passed along privately the information that 7 million people on the globe own $100 or more worth of Bitcoin. It’s not very many people owning very much Bitcoin. We’re going to try to create 21 million Bitcoiners that actually understand Bitcoin and give a shit and are stacking.

Brady:                  Love it, man. That’s the goal, 21 million Bitcoiners.

Cory Klippsten:                  21 million new Bitcoiners.

Brady:                  That’s 3X what we currently have right now.

Cory Klippsten:                  That’s the goal.

Brady:                  Damn. I can’t imagine we’ve 7 million hodlers with a decent amount of skin in the game at this point has driven Bitcoin to $10,000 a coin 3X that and the network effects that come with that. Meaning, if you guys directly onboard 21 million Bitcoiners, the second third-order effects of that adoption is going to be 100 million Bitcoiners.

Cory Klippsten:                  Yeah, well, I think the only way that’s going to happen is actually essentially turning all Bitcoiners into a Bitcoin sales force as a marketing team for Bitcoin. Word of mouth and people you care about is the way that most things are actually spread. If I needed to buy a new laptop, the first thing I do is just text my brother-in-law because he’s the nerd. He’s got a new Ag every day and he’ll tell me exactly what to buy. Whatever refurbished thing that he just got for cheap, I’ll just buy the newer version of that.

Cory Klippsten:                  So, basically, that’s what we’re doing. We want new coiners to learn about Bitcoin from people that actually care about them and want them to get involved in Bitcoin. And that goes both ways, by the way. So, it’s not just giving Bitcoin, it’s also… Let’s say there’s a Gen Z or millennial, or someone that wants to get Bitcoin, they can put Bitcoin on their wishlist and they can ask all of their rich relatives and friends or social followers or colleagues or whatever, and basically say, “I want Bitcoin for Christmas, birthday, graduation, bar mitzvah, wedding. So, it basically spreads both ways.

Brady:                  Nice. So, a user could just give a URL out for the requests for Bitcoin to their GiveBitcoin account?

Cory Klippsten:                  That’s right.

Brady:                  Okay.

Cory Klippsten:                  That’s right.

Brady:                  That’s right.

Cory Klippsten:                  You can post that on social and you can promote that on your YouTube. It’s all individuals right now, but very soon we’ll have courses-

Brady:                  Courses, yeah.

Cory Klippsten:                  … institutions, all kinds of stuff.

Brady:                  That’s rad, man. I love it. All right, well this is a good chance to dive into the product a bit more. Can you walk us through the user experience on both ends, like the sender and the receiver?

Cory Klippsten:                  Yeah, sure. So, let’s say that there’s a hypothetical person named Brady, and Brady has someone that he wants to become a Bitcoiner. Let’s say that person’s name is Niall. And so Brady meets Niall and thinks that Niall has the makings of good Bitcoiner because Niall is a human. And so, Brady says, “Hey, Niall, I’m going to send you some Bitcoin. What’s your email address?” And you get Niall’s email address and this will be a phone number too soon. Just email to start. And it basically just very quickly takes less than 60 seconds to initiate the gift. You decide how much you want to give. Your choices of the Timelock are one year, five years, or choose any data in between. So, minimum, one year, max, five years.

Cory Klippsten:                  Niall now gets an email that says, “Hey, Brady gave you $21 worth of Bitcoin, click here to claim it.” So, basically, then Niall goes and signs up for an account. This account is… And this is where it gets a little hairy, and this is definitely a trade-off where we want it fast and easy and we want the best chance of success, and the Timelock is really important. And then actually owning the Bitcoin and you being able as the giver to… Essentially, if you want to be involved, you can, but if you don’t want to be and you want to wash your hands of it and outsource Bitcoin, IT support, and education to us completely and never talk to that person again, you can.

Cory Klippsten:                  We do use a custodian, so it is Prime Trust on the back end. The recipient opens an account through us, essentially opens a user segregated account that holds their Bitcoin for them at Prime Trust. We never actually have any access to the account information nor the, obviously, the actual currency on the dollar side of the transaction, nor the Bitcoin side. I should mention, you can only liquidate dirty fiat for beautiful orange coin on our platform, you’re not allowed to actually give away your own Bitcoins.

Brady:                  Nice.

Cory Klippsten:                  You have to hold those. You want to actually be part of our career. You have to hodl all your coins. Then they open an account and accept the gift. For larger gifts where you wouldn’t want to get hit as the giver with a, “Well, what was that transaction again?” So for larger gifts over 50 bucks, you have to accept within 30 days. If it’s less than 50 bucks, then they actually have a full year to accept their gift and we’ll be prompting them and reminding them along the way that they have this gift waiting.

Brady:                  Right on. That makes sense.

Cory Klippsten:                  And the nice thing is like loading up a USB stick or something that and actually having to put the Bitcoin on it and give it to them, and then either that Bitcoin has gone or you’ve actually maintained ownership of that and they’re keeping a private key copy in the background just in case they lose it. The transaction never happens unless they are signed up for the platform. If they sign up for the platform, they are getting 12 account statements with what’s going on with their Bitcoin value. And in every one of those account statements is another lesson from the Bitcoin curriculum. They’re getting the 12 lessons. If your bank account is debited, they’re getting the 12 lessons.

Brady:                  Cool. So, what are those lessons like? Who’s developing it and what topics are you going to be covering? Are you guys going to talk about shit coins at all or are you going to just focus completely on Bitcoin? I mean, not talk about shit coins in a good way, but warn people about shit coins, or just focusing on Bitcoin?

Cory Klippsten:                  Yeah, we are focusing 100% on Bitcoin. I wouldn’t wish any of those other ones on people that I care about, like friends and family or other humans. So, it’s all Bitcoin. I feel like all of this effort that’s been put into education over the last couple of years and some of the good books that have come out like Yan Pritzker’s inventing Bitcoin and obviously Saifedean’s book and Rabbi’s book and some of the other ones, they’re all kind of coming toward a pretty good sense of how to play it down the middle. And then it’s all just variations on that. So, we’re going to try really hard in that first one to hook somebody on Bitcoin and try a few different analogies and different angles to get them interested and start them down the rabbit hole. Hopefully they actually read ahead.

Cory Klippsten:                  The whole curriculum will actually be available. They don’t have to wait if they want to read ahead. And then module two will probably be more what is money, what’s wrong with our money? Like why is it so bad? Why did we need this new money? And then, three is going to be a lot more about [inaudible 00:28:21], like what it is as a hard currency, and as a settlement there, and things that. And so you can kind of imagine the natural progression. We’ll get into some low tie-up time preference. We’ll probably have one module that’s just stories of people that came into Bitcoin and how it changed their life, that kind

[crosstalk 00:28:40]

Brady:                  Nice, I like to hear that.

Cory Klippsten:                  … a little bit the middle chapters of the Bitcoin standard and stuff. And then later chapters are going to be heavily influenced by people Matt Odell who’s another advisor and part-owner of the company along with Saifedean, and then Yan Pritzker and Stephan Livera. So, there’ll be a lot more technical stuff from Stephan and Ragnar, Guns N’ Bitcoin, and Matt in the later chapters talking about cold storage and self-sovereignty, the importance of running a node, private transactions, things that.

Brady:                  Nice.

Cory Klippsten:                  And what’s in the future for Bitcoin. That’s kind of how we’re spacing it out.

Brady:                  Very cool. So, let’s say someone who’s been gifted some GiveBitcoin. And they start going through the material and they’re sold and they start getting into the, “All right, what is this whole thing about sovereignty and holding my own keys, and running a node and et cetera.” Well, at that point I would assume that that person might want to start procuring Bitcoin that they can hold.

Cory Klippsten:                  Yeah.

Brady:                  And it’s not-

Cory Klippsten:                  Yeah, that’s right.

Brady:                  … not Timelocked anymore.

Cory Klippsten:                  Yeah, that’s right. Yeah. They all have the option of buying right there through us.

Brady:                  Cool.

Cory Klippsten:                  And they’ll be able to Timelock that if they want or not. So, we actually have some people that want to. I think there’s the hashtag proof of Hodl, which is basically when somebody is like, “You know what, I might have a little bit of a weekend and I’m just going to Timelock this.”

Brady:                  Yeah, yeah.

Cory Klippsten:                  Not necessarily the greatest on self-sovereignty and key storage, and so I’d rather just leave this with Prime Trust, which also custody’s finance and bit treks and will be okay asking a bunch of funds and companies and OTC desks. It’s a pretty good setup.

Cory Klippsten:                  But our education and our whole bent is all about what’s good for Bitcoin, which is really all about self custody and self-sovereignty. And so, we’re going to be educating about nodes and I’m sure we’ll develop partnerships with the cold cards and the courses of the world [inaudible 00:30:41] from multisig and stuff that. And really just educate about what’s out there and go through the list of the Bitcoin, only people that really have what’s best for Bitcoin in mind with their product development, and help promote those companies and encourage people to either do it direct where you can actually just buy and it goes straight into your Bitcoin address that you’ve preloaded, or we’ll basically let you buy and then immediately switches to you.

Brady:                  Sure.

Cory Klippsten:                  We’re going to have… We encourage DCA and try to get people to sign up for repeat purchases. That’s literally the easiest, most feel-good process that you could have to be stacking.

Brady:                  That’s awesome. Are you guys buying your Bitcoin daily or weekly? And then do you… Actually you have the automated process that then puts it into, you said, it was a user-defined account, so each person has a separate account at Prime Trust?

Cory Klippsten:                  That’s right. Yeah. So, initially, it’s batch daily, so all the orders… Basically, everyone who accepts on a given day, their givers accounts are then debited on that day and the aggregate amount of that is purchased. This is all just handled by a payment processor on the backend, but it’s basically small-ish days are just bought on Crack, and then large-ish days are Cumberland, the OTC desk.

Brady:                  Yeah. So, the vision is pretty broad actually. Like this is sort of a… I guess you would call it kind of an MVP that you’re launching now and it has just the basic GiveBitcoin functionality and time locking and et cetera. But the way that-

Cory Klippsten:                  It’s utility. It’s utility. Everything that Twitter has done over the last 12 years has basically just been serving the needs of users that signed up for that initial utility to broadcast a message to anybody that followed you.

Brady:                  Yeah.

Cory Klippsten:                  And it’s similar. We see it as a core function, but then you can expand and you end up naturally expanding into all of these other things to serve that user base.

Brady:                  Exactly.

Cory Klippsten:                  One thing I really wanted to touch on, which is I think… We’ve built this thing, we started coding July 1st and we’re live now. So, if you post this right away, it’ll be at, for your users, but the main URL will have the full site in the next couple of weeks after we just work out the final kinks, but everything’s working, and you’re welcome to go and start banging around and trying it out.

Brady:                  It’s exciting.

Cory Klippsten:                  We develop really fast. I’m actually a part-owner of the dev shop that is building it. So, we get special access and do everything really quickly.

Brady:                  Nice.

Cory Klippsten:                  We’re building out a really robust affiliate program for referrals now. I talked about how the main thrust of my career and startups the last half-decade has been about trying to create these places to let a thousand flowers bloom. You don’t know who’s going to be the best at talking about Bitcoin and marketing Bitcoin. Maybe some kid at Toledo University that just crushes it with his Bitcoin meet-up and has dope presentations and leverages some of our videos and passes out pamphlets that get everybody jazzed about Bitcoin. We’re going to be splitting our fees 50% with our referrers-

Brady:                  Nice.

Cory Klippsten:                  … that market and educate people about Bitcoin. We’re doing the curriculum, but if this thing goes well and we have some revenue and able to take in some investor dollars and have the resources, basically what we want to do is we want to have a really good repository of Bitcoin educational resources that anyone can use and then go and turn on their community and their network to Bitcoin and then actually monetize their own evangelism through us, and stack SATs like nobody’s ever stacked SATs before.

Brady:                  That’s amazing, man. I love that vision. There’s tons of examples of that model being super successful in retail and other products. I could see a [inaudible 00:35:01] building up some huge Bitcoin church in evangelists in Australia, and just-

Cory Klippsten:                  He’s going to have a congregation [crosstalk 00:35:09].

Brady:                  … Start going door to door, right?

Cory Klippsten:                  That’s right.

Brady:                  Banging on doors, bringing the good Bitcoin word.

Cory Klippsten:                  [inaudible 00:35:17] witnesses, it’d be a real thing down under.

Brady:                  Yeah. For real. I am more and more buying into this analogy of a Bitcoin and religion, secular religion of course, but they have similarities between… The way religions have developed and the way Bitcoin is spreading, are extremely similar. You just can’t ignore it. I saw on your deck that you quoted one of GG’s tweets about this. So, you seem to be on board with it too, and you’re using all kinds of religious terminology here. So, your investors and stakeholders, what do they think about this kind of what I would assume seems a really far out idea to the people who are in the mainstream and not in our little bubble?

Cory Klippsten:                  That’s how I see it and I definitely am crazy evangelist for better or worse, I think better. But that’s powerful. That’s powerful. What I talk about a lot is seeking 100% alignment with Bitcoin. One of my actually super smart friends out in New York actually knows randomly the gifting industry really well, and he made the point to me a few days ago that in the world of gifting, you don’t market the gifting product, you market the gift.

Cory Klippsten:                  And so basically all we need to do is talk about Bitcoin and make as many people as we possibly can talk about Bitcoin, and then give them a way… If they want to monetize through that, then they can. The fact that they’re going to be monetizing in SATs… I don’t know about you but I have a weird mental accounting thing where I just believe that Bitcoin is going up so much that whatever SATs I earn when I think about it in dollar terms, I just automatically 10X it.

Cory Klippsten:                  I’ll jump through all kinds of ways. I don’t sit there and do stupid SATs earning things on my phone. One of these junky new things out of Asia, but they actually give you SATs for clicking on which images have streetlight and-

Brady:                  Wait, wait, wait. I haven’t heard about this.

Cory Klippsten:                  I’ll find it for you, dude. I’ll find it for you. Brekkie Von Bitcoin and I have been wasting some time earning double and triple-digit SATs for tasks.

Brady:                  That’s hilarious.

Cory Klippsten:                  Totally not. I’m earning like a penny for three minutes or something. It’s the dumbest use of time, but I’m earning SATs.

Brady:                  Makes sense. Yeah, except in five years it’ll look a genius fucking spent three minutes, right?

Cory Klippsten:                  Right. It made me look super smart, but I actually think that people would… rather than clicking on the streetlights in the pictures being a tap monkey, I think people would much rather evangelize Bitcoin and try red pill Bitcoiners and be able to monetize that.

Brady:                  Yeah, absolutely.

Cory Klippsten:                  So, we’re going to try to build that platform that lets people do what they naturally want to do anyway, which is, talk about Bitcoin and try to get other people involved.

Brady:                  Cool. So, who are your investors if you can share?

Cory Klippsten:                  Tom Lee from Fundstrat is definitely cool with us mentioning him. Murad Mahudov-

Brady:                  Nice.

Cory Klippsten:                  … is an investor from Adaptive Capitals. He’s a great analyst. I don’t know if anybody else is actually comfortable with talking about them publicly, but we can definitely talk about the advisory board, which is obviously super important because those are the people that are actually developing the curriculum with us. So, we’re interviewing our curriculum advisors and that is what is becoming the curriculum. So, Saifedean Ammous, he’s an advisor and part-owner of the company. Stephan Lavera, Matt Odell, Yan Pritzker, Meltem Demirors. Gary Leland from Bit Block Boom. Michael Caras, the Bitcoin rabbi, Ragnar Lifthrasir from Guns N’ Bitcoin. Brekkie Von Bitcoin, obviously. Got to have art represented.

Cory Klippsten:                  Did you see his new series where he’s… And this is actually where we want to go with this too. If we really can take this platform… We’re right down the middle and have one curriculum now, but we’ve always thought about you might pitch Bitcoin differently or talk about it differently to your 65-year-old grandma versus a 13-year-old bar mitzvah kid. So, Brekkie has a series out where he’s saying how do you pitch Bitcoin to a vegan? How do you pitch Bitcoin to a Buddhist? Yeah, absolutely, we want to have all that on there too.

Brady:                  Yeah. I love that. I love it.

Cory Klippsten:                  We’ll get there.

Brady:                  So, is that the series that he did for Tantra Labs?

Cory Klippsten:                  Yes, yes.

Brady:                  I’ll have to link to it.

Cory Klippsten:                  Yeah, for sure. Yeah. So, he’s an advisor to us and we’ll probably sell some rec yard on the site and stuff that.

Brady:                  Sweet. Sweet. Yeah. I love the Bitcoin art stuff. When there’s a movement, especially if you’re getting into this religious territory, art is super important to making the case and memeing it into existence as Blitzstein would say.

Cory Klippsten:                  Absolutely. Well, we like to say GiveBitcoin number go up.

Brady:                  [crosstalk 00:40:43].

Cory Klippsten:                  Actually, I should… One of Brekkie’s colleagues at Tantra is actually the computer genius that does all their algos and stuff is this guy Russell. And Russell is actually a Yogi and rocks the orange pants and everything. So, we were all hanging out at a conference a few weeks back. He and Brekkie came up with a mudra, which I guess is… it looked a gang sign to me, but you basically you put your hand out as if you’re giving or accepting a gift and then you point up that number go up. So, it’s kind of GiveBitcoin number go up. So, now we’re starting to throw up our gang sign mudra pictures.

Brady:                  That’s amazing. That’s amazing. I love it.

Cory Klippsten:                  You got a meme man, you got a meme [crosstalk 00:41:24].

Brady:                  In all ways, shapes, and forms.

Cory Klippsten:                  It shall be so. It was dictated from up on high by a Bitsy Moses.

Brady:                  I love it. All right, well, we’ve touched on this a little bit, but I want to ask it in a way that I think might get us a little bit more out of it. I think many Bitcoiners do the… The Bitcoin is inevitable. It really it’s about this economic truth of sound money that will assert itself one way or the other. So, given that belief… And I’ve had people push back on me on this front too, some people might say, “Why is Bitcoin education something we should even care about? Because, it’s just going to happen anyway.” What do you have to say about that? Like why is Bitcoin education important if we assume that Bitcoin is going to happen no matter what?

Cory Klippsten:                  Do you want it to happen for you during your life and for your kids? Do I want my kids to grow up and hit their earning years in a time when it’s much more fair and rational, and the market place that they go to work in is bigger and much more friction-free and doesn’t have all these friction tokens between each different country with their questionable governments printing money? I’d to pull that future forward as much as possible.

Brady:                  For sure.

Cory Klippsten:                  And that only happens through our disperse and collective efforts to educate and proselytize and bring about this future. Not to mention that… Well, I don’t think Bitcoin can be killed, I think it could certainly be hampered. So, if the US government decides to make it illegal one day, well, even if there’s some small chance of that happening, I want to make sure that it doesn’t happen. I want to protect that downside. So, educating and getting it in the hands.

Cory Klippsten:                  I love what the rabbi did, getting Bitcoin money basically crowdfunding and getting people to buy 535 copies of the book and having them sent to the offices of every Congressman and Senator. I would love to do that for 535 senators and reps and maybe a bunch of more people too. I think the gift cap is 50 bucks, and their email addresses are public, so maybe I’ll just do a little crowdfunding campaign and raise 25 grand and send $49 to each of their email addresses. $49 [crosstalk 00:43:52].

Brady:                  Yeah. Imagine getting Bitcoiners to do the same thing to their representatives in their constituencies. Like I could send 49 bucks to my representative and both my senators, that’s-

Cory Klippsten:                  That’s a really good idea.

Brady:                  … 147 bucks. But imagine you get 100 of those or 200 of those in your office, you’re not going to be able to ignore that.

Cory Klippsten:                  Well, I think you just gave me a really good idea, now I have to… I think you know Bryant, our marketing guy, but I think what we need to do… Because I think we need to go state by state and we need to make it a year-long campaign. Basically, we’ll do Iowa, it will be the first week of the year, and we’ll basically crowdfunding and then disperse to their reps. Maybe we’ll go downstate sending guys and everybody basically crowdfund the Iowa political class, and then the next week we’ll do Oklahoma, and the next week it’ll be and the next week it’ll be Massachusetts.

Brady:                  I love it.

Cory Klippsten:                  Basically just knock out one state each week.

Brady:                  I love it.

Cory Klippsten:                  But, yeah. I think that… It’s just nice to have a mechanism through which that’s possible.

Brady:                  Yeah, exactly.

Cory Klippsten:                  Because you pointed it out, once the utility exists, then you’re basically building a platform that people can use a bunch of different ways. They’ll be creative about it. We’ll have some ideas but I don’t think we’ll have the best ideas. I think other people will have much better ideas on how to spread Bitcoin

[inaudible 00:45:13]

, we’re just going to help make it possible.

Brady:                  Yeah, exactly. The other thing I think about with Bitcoin education a lot is besides just speeding things up, I think it’s really important to help create a more peaceful transition. I think if we have a certain critical mass of education, one, we’ll create a political class that understands Bitcoin and is incentivized because they own some to help create a world where Bitcoin is able to thrive.

Brady:                  But two, there’s a certain number of people that just understand it in general. I think there’s less likelihood that some kind of government propaganda could create a situation where there’s pro-Bitcoiners and anti-Bitcoiners and there’s just kind of literally physical violence that happens between people, or just state-level violence too to enforce bans and things that. A lot of that I think would be much less likely to happen if we are proactive about getting this message out there and educating very aggressively.

Cory Klippsten:                  Yeah. You nailed it, [inaudible 00:46:25] respond to that one.

Brady:                  Yeah, no, it’s just something I think about quite a bit. I am extremely driven to educate about Bitcoiner, obviously. And I think a lot of us are, but that’s one of the main motivations I see. One is exactly what you’re saying. I want this future to come from my kids sooner than later. My daughter’s eight years old, she’s going to be out on her own making her way and trying to figure out what she wants to do for career and all that in just 10 years, which is not that far away. So, I feel we have a ton of work in this critical next decade, the second decade of Bitcoin’s life to really bring that… like you said, pull that future forward. I love that turn of phrase.

Cory Klippsten:                  Yeah, I think that’s right. Yeah. We’re experimenting with… A tagline that I think we really want to push out and… Don’t steal it guys… But actually process of trademarking it… is own the future, just started using that hashtag on Twitter and I really that idea of if this is going to be the future money, don’t you want to own the future-

Brady:                  That’s a good one, man.

Cory Klippsten:                  … and pull that future forward

Brady:                  Yeah, I get it.

Cory Klippsten:                  That makes a lot of sense.

Brady:                  So, as we start building out what I’ve been calling the Bitcoin education industry because I see a lot of companies moving in that direction. I think it’s going to be as we scale up, like we said, 7 million Bitcoiners holding a hundred or dollars or the Bitcoin, that’s just tiny. So, there’s going to be… There’s so many people to educate and bring up to speed on what we’ve been wandering around the rabbit hole for the last few years. There’s tons of work to do. Do you think that Bitcoin education will more likely be included as part of other Bitcoin services? Like GiveBitcoin or Cash App or Lolly? Or do you foresee dedicated education businesses, something like what Stephan is doing with Ministry of Nodes? Or just both, I guess, developing simultaneously. Which one do you think makes more sense?

Cory Klippsten:                  I think it’s all kind of the same thing, I think. And it’s the same people are involved in all of it. Obviously, it’s great to have Stephan’s input on what we’re doing and have somebody that can read a module and tell us that section is stupid and you forgot this. That’s super crucial. The work that he’s doing with Ministry of Nodes where he’s learning exactly how to red pill Australians often with hand-to-hand combat in seminars, and meet-ups, and stuff. That’s incredible primary research for someone like us that’s trying to go a little bit more scaled.

Cory Klippsten:                  And then you’ve got obviously what Saifedean is doing with his MOOCs. He just quit Academia and he’s basically just teaching econ, Austrian economics, which is going to have a healthy dose of Bitcoin in it. I’ve got a few friends that… I’ve watched a couple of the lectures and I’ve got a couple of friends that have gone through all 10, and it’s really good and it’s… You just can’t really get that kind of attention.

Cory Klippsten:                  I’m not talking about just the video lectures. You’re getting a lot of access to him. You can email him any time. He’s got office hours where he joins and you can talk to him by video conference. He’s really able to access his students in a way that he couldn’t even when he was on campus. I think it’s super interesting that people are taking these different models. I love the effort that my brother from down under, Alex Fedski with Amber, which has a DCA App, dollar-cost-average app. He’s got the Bitcoin times, he just put out a 36 page PDF that has some really good angles on intro to Bitcoin. Love that.

Cory Klippsten:                  There’s so much good stuff out there. Our twist on it is we are specifically targeting a new coiner that came into Bitcoin in this particular way. So, it’s very specific to our platform, and then we expand out from there. It’s actually written in a question and answer format and the questions are the new coiner that just got their Bitcoin. And it’s like, “Why did they give me a Bitcoin? What is Bitcoin?” And then we have an answer, reading it out. We have a really good voiceover actor to read the questions and then naturally we have a guy from crypto economy reading the answers.

Brady:                  Nice. The voice of Bitcoin.

Cory Klippsten:                  Exactly. So, that’s the audio version of the [inaudible 00:50:50] put out.

Brady:                  Very cool. That makes sense. All right, man. I’m so excited about GiveBitcoin. I think this is going to be really fun to watch rollout and people get their hands on it. To finish up, I want to zoom out a little bit and talk a little bit more about just Bitcoin’s future, the situation that we’re in right now, maybe speculate a little bit about what’s going to happen in the near term and then maybe have some fun speculating more distant just for a good time. What’s your take on the macroeconomic situation that we’re in right now and how Bitcoin is going to respond, I guess, to it in the next few years?

Cory Klippsten:                  I think in absence of seeing Bitcoin in a financial crisis and also understanding where probably most of the money from Bitcoin has probably been coming for the last five years, it’s hard for me to see that we are going to go up when the broad market goes down. Interestingly, I think probably the best thing for Bitcoin is a huge bull market from here, in US equities in particular.

Cory Klippsten:                  So, this is like the Tom Lee viewpoint. Fundstrat is saying S&P goes to 18,000 over the next 10 years, and that we’re actually about to begin a crazy bull market. At least in nominal terms, it’s hard to argue that that doesn’t have a possibility. I think the countervailing is like, “This thing can’t go on forever. This time is different, and we’re building on a house of cards and we were just printing all this money.”

Cory Klippsten:                  The ability of governments to keep printing money and keep things going has been well underestimated going back to 2012. Remember this whole thing was supposed to unravel in 2012, and every year it’s supposed to have unraveled. So, I don’t know. I do know that… I think if there’s a crash that I think that coin is still predominantly a risk-on asset, and that I think a lot of people will pull money out of Bitcoin, at least initially if there’s a crash. Obviously my hope is that people pile back in, but I don’t think that it’s good for the Bitcoin price if there’s an economic crash.

Brady:                  Yeah. I hadn’t heard this Tom Lee take because everything I’m… Maybe I’m just in some kind of doom and gloom economic bubble.

Cory Klippsten:                  No. You’re on the same Bitcoin Twitter that I’m on, and all we want to look at is how F’d up the financial system is. But remember an S&P that goes up that much is still nominally priced. It’s not in real terms. And it goes along with the world moving to negative interest rates everywhere. It goes along with essentially horrifying stats out there that I’ve seen recently is that 95% of the positive debt yield globally is US.

Cory Klippsten:                  So, this then gets into… I think Nick Batya’s piece either came out today or is about to come out this week where he’s basically going to explain… I think it’s just the academic explanation of what Trace always talks about with the different silos of global assets, and then Bitcoin has to fill its silo. He basically is going to make this case that we’re going to end up in US treasuries, gold and Bitcoin as being the three assets that people try to hold and have exposure to essentially thinking about it as money or cash. That’s probably where we’re headed with Bitcoin and the relative value of those and how they trade. We’ll see.

Cory Klippsten:                  But treasuries do still have a positive yield, whereas dollars obviously still have a negative yield. But Nick’s really strong vociferous point and I think he’s right as a finance profit. USC has been thinking about Bitcoin nonstop for six years, so he’s probably right, is that we shouldn’t be thinking about Bitcoin competing with US dollar. It’s actually a much more US treasuries, and that’s really what has the target on its back for Bitcoin is treasuries.

Brady:                  That makes sense. So, how long do you think his battle will play out between Bitcoin and The Fed?

Cory Klippsten:                  Again, that’s the treasury department, not The Fed because The Fed prints the dollars and the dollars will, in fact, inflate significantly against Bitcoin over time.

Brady:                  Okay. Got you.

Cory Klippsten:                  But the treasuries, which is like the power of the US consumer and all of our entrepreneurship and our massive geographic and demographic advantages over every other country on the planet, and the US military securing the future. I very much subscribed to the Stratford, George Friedman, Peter’s iron view of things that the 21st century is actually the American century, the 20th century was just a preview. So, I actually think that US extends its power and becomes further entrenched as the one that called them in, global political power that actually matters.

Cory Klippsten:                  We’re not heading for a multipolar world. We’re not heading for splintering. This is the century of American dominance and even the rise of Bitcoin, I think that happens alongside of it. And that our best bet for securing the future of Bitcoin is actually getting people to see it as the most American, most patriotic, most literally aligned with the views of the founding fathers taking up… basically taking all the energy from Ron Paul’s 1992 presidential run and making that go wide and making a Bitcoin instead of gold.

Brady:                  Yeah. That’s amazing. So, you think we’ll be able to then shift back to some kind of a Bitcoin standard then in the future in America and, I guess, globally?

Cory Klippsten:                  Well, again, this is where I think that Trace and Nick probably have it right. You can have a Bitcoin standard as long as people are able to price things in Bitcoin. That’s all that’s really required. So, there were still plenty of other currencies being used all around the world on the gold standard doing the industrial revolution, [BelloPolk 00:57:36] late 18th century, whatever. There were still local currencies, but there was also a gold price and everybody knew what it would cost in gold as well or in Bank of England banknotes.

Cory Klippsten:                  So, I think that will probably accelerate a lot faster than people think. We’re probably 15 years away from actually most people around the world using Bitcoin as a unit of account. And that’s because it’s going to be easier to use Bitcoin as a unit of account than it is going to be using gold or treasuries. So, those are the three big assets. And you should have Nick on because… I haven’t even read it and I’ve talked to the guy twice, and I don’t understand 1000th of what he does about this stuff, but it just makes sense because Trace has been talking about this for so long about these assets silos and that we just need to fill the grain silo that is Bitcoin, but it doesn’t mean the other silos go away.

Brady:                  Right. Okay, that makes sense.

Cory Klippsten:                  And then the other thing that’s dovetailing with all of this for me is Saife’s new area of research and is just starting to lay out his thinking about… that we might just do dollarize instead of hyper inflate the dollar. That’s probably a much more likely outcome is that we actually… As demand for dollars gets siphoned off by Bitcoin, they’re not going to supply the same amount of dollars. They’ll cut the supply because they only supply dollars based on the demand. That’s actually how The Fed works anyway.

Cory Klippsten:                  People don’t really realize, The Fed doesn’t actually set rates to dictate what banks do, The Fed sets rates in response to the requests for loans from their member banks. The Federal is owned by the banks. It’s a private company that’s a consortium of the big banks basically on Fed. And if the banks have a bunch of demand for loans from businesses, then they go to The Fed and say, “We need more money to lend out.” And then The Fed goes and basically creates the money to supply those loans.

Cory Klippsten:                  If there’s no demand for the loans, they won’t create the dollars. So, when people don’t want dollars for their business and they prefer Bitcoin, The Fed’s not going to create money. So, if you reduce supply and demand, we have a good chance at not hyper-inflating and having much more of a soft landing for the dollar when it’s still around, but there’s a lot less of that.

Brady:                  Yeah. Yeah. That makes sense. I have heard Saife teasing that idea out a bit. It’s encouraging to imagine that not having… I think a lot of Bitcoiners have assumed in the past some major money battle play out. But it’s just people saying… Yeah, the market demand is like, “We want Bitcoin, we want to get paid in Bitcoin.” “Okay, we’ll start paying you in Bitcoin.” And then it’s just inevitable from there. Other people start pricing services and goods in Bitcoin. And then, yeah, you just kind of phase out the dollar over time. Makes sense.

Cory Klippsten:                  Yeah.

Brady:                  All right. Just for fun, I’m sure you’ve daydreamed about this at least a little bit. What do you think a Bitcoin future looks in the more distant future like 50 years from now?

Cory Klippsten:                  There’ll probably be a lot of salvage crews going out into the lakes and the oceans trying to find all of this boating accident Bitcoin that they read about on Twitter archives. So, it’d be like, “Wow, that guy talked about Bitcoin a lot. He lived in Ohio 2018 when you had his boating accident. There’s always so many lakes in Ohio.” Bitcoin boating accident treasure hunt will be a huge growth industry. Mine is actually somewhere at the bottom of the Marina here in Los Angeles.

Brady:                  I lost mine at Clinton Lake. I was just getting pulled on one of those tubes? Tubes getting pulled and just like I don’t know what. I had my ledger with me. I don’t know.

Cory Klippsten:                  Bitcoins fell right out of your pocket, it happens-

Brady:                  Which is crazy.

Cory Klippsten:                  … it sunk. [crosstalk 01:02:00].

Brady:                  Yeah. So, figure out how to get the Bitcoin 50 years from now off a water logged

[inaudible 01:02:04]


Cory Klippsten:                  That’s right. That’s right. I hope that 50 years from now that this… I think maybe the most analogous future for us as we decentralize a bit and head more toward one great commercial union where Bitcoin is the language by which we coordinate activity and essentially talk to each other around the world. You get rid of all these friction tokens and get rid of using money as a weapon, which money is totally weaponized around the world, maybe primarily by the US but indeed by many other countries as well.

Cory Klippsten:                  If you can get rid of that, I think what you may have is a global version of the most successful empire that ever existed, which isn’t written about very much, but the Phoenician Empire was around for a couple of thousand years. Most of what we consider… Our fantastic traditional culture was from the Eastern Mediterranean. This is where Nassim Taleb, my… Sorry, my favorite philosopher is from Lebanon. Saifedean, Palestinian. I don’t think it’s any coincidence that they come from that tradition, the land of Ruby, all these great Mediterranean towns there.

Cory Klippsten:                  Traditionally, that was just a commercial empire and they didn’t fight wars, they were traders, and they had immense wealth, great knowledge and developed societies that have lasted 5,000 years on the backs of those traditions. So, I could see this just being this global, great marketplace that lifts all boats, that undoes what we’ve seen since 1971 where basically that’s the great chart where from the beginning of the industrial revolution, productivity has risen 2% every year. Wages did too up until ‘71 and then they flat lined and the lines totally diverged. Well, that we’ll be able to get back and essentially let people earn their fair share of the productivity gains.

Cory Klippsten:                  So, yeah, I’m super hopeful. I think Bitcoin will keep what happens with treasuries in check, and with the dollar in check, with the Euro in check, and what happens with Zimbabwean dollars and everything else. Just having that available that you can keep your money in your head and you can exit without physically having to exit, and just the check that that provides. It only needs to reach a certain size. I don’t know what it is, but it’s probably… Even if it matches gold, that’s probably enough to end most tyranny.

Brady:                  Yeah. Yeah.

Cory Klippsten:                  You probably need $7 trillion worth of Bitcoin to stop tyranny from happening most… And if you can like [inaudible 01:04:59].

Brady:                  Yeah, disincentive this to-

Cory Klippsten:                  … something that people can own. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

Brady:                  Tyranny, yeah.

Cory Klippsten:                  … Most tyranny is enabled by the printing of money and capital controls. That’s the first thing that happens. Argentina goes crazy in capital controls out of nowhere, Hong Kong shuts down withdrawals from the ATM. We’re can’t do that anymore because we’re good with mesh networks, we’re good with VPNs, we have Tor 2.0. Bitcoin wallets are super easy, they’re easy to hide. It just gets better from a UX standpoint. It’s just super easy to hold Bitcoin and transact in Bitcoin. You just won’t have this chicanery, or as my father-in-law would say this tomfoolery from these governments anymore. They just won’t be able to get away with it.

Brady:                  Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I think GiveBitcoin is going to be a big part of bringing the masses around to that potential future. There’s definitely some education to happen, knowing how to take control of your privacy and the reasons why you want it to control your privacy, and route around these centralized modes of information sharing that we’ve built up.

Brady:                  The original vision of the internet was to create this decentralized network that would be resistant to Black Swan events. And we’ve largely been gradually centralizing since those early days with the decentralized ethos of the internet. We have these massive data silos now, and it’s turned into a way for governments and corporations to spy on people and track people. Bitcoin is incentivizing this future of returning to that decentralization and enabling the tools that we need. Like you mentioned mesh networks and Tor 2.0, and all that stuff. It’s just part of the Bitcoin infrastructure.

Brady:                  That’s, I think, given me a ton of hope to think about a future like that as opposed to continuing on the path that we’ve been on. No one wants to live in that kind of an oppressive society. It’s just not a hopeful place to be.

Cory Klippsten:                  I think you’re right, yeah. You’re definitely right. I think some of the stuff that Giacomo Zucco and Luke Dashjr, the things that they talk about ensuring that a preponderance of Bitcoiners really go full Bitcoin citizen, that weighs heavily on my mind, creating what is initially custodial service. It kind of has to be for the product… well, 100% has to be for the product to function with double up and gifting and the Timelock, and set it and forget it, and all that.

Cory Klippsten:                  It’s incumbent upon us to truly educate people about self-sovereignty and make sure that the majority of these people start stacking and taking it into their own custody over time because that is what really inoculates Bitcoin from a future, much like the internet where it used to be all about permission less. Because we were just lazy and government turned a blind eye to most of what was going on, we got lazy and we let it centralize. And then the government came in and said, “Oh, well now that you’re a centralized, we need that back door.”

Cory Klippsten:                  And so, that really is the risk to bit Bitcoin as well. And this was option three, I think, Giacomo running through this on a recent podcast and they totally gave me pause. I’ve already been thinking about this, but it’s made me even more mission-driven to make sure that everyone that comes into Bitcoin through us understands that if you’re capable in the least, you’re not indigent 95 or 12 years old or something, take custody of your Bitcoins and be a full Bitcoiner.

Brady:                  Yeah. And it’s not that hard anymore. With the services like Unchained and Casa, it’s really, really simple. And the UI UX is just getting better and better. You have great support teams on both companies that are there to help you if you have any questions whatsoever. Yeah, there’s really no reason, as you pointed.

Cory Klippsten:                  I’m an advisor to Unchained, and love those guys. Let’s see how sponsorship goes. Maybe I’ll get a little bee in their bonnet about this. You can get number two. But, yeah, that is the risk, right? If most people just think about Bitcoin as being something that sits in their account at their bank and the government lets that happen for 20 or 30 years. If today maybe whatever it is, the estimates are anywhere from two to 7 million Bitcoins are custodied in some way today, if that creeps up and it ends up being like 70 or 80 or something like that over time, and then the government decides, “Yeah, you know what, we’re just going to go.” Or [inaudible 01:10:18] in some way, or at least come in and get all the info and know who all the Bitcoiners are, whatever. That’s the future-

Brady:                  Which happened with gold, right?

Cory Klippsten:                  Yeah.

Brady:                  FDR did it at the beginning of World War I.

Cory Klippsten:                  33, yeah.

Brady:                  World War II. Yeah.

Cory Klippsten:                  World War II, yeah. Confiscated it all.

Brady:                  Yeah.

Cory Klippsten:                  So, yeah, I think it’s super important. Not confiscated, but forced the sale of it, I should say.

Brady:                  Right.

Cory Klippsten:                  I think it’s very important that we think about the things that have a 1% chance of happening, if it would obliterate the whole thing, or a 10% chance of happening and really think about inoculating ourselves against that. That’s why we’re really focused on getting lots more Bitcoiners, getting the political and the financial class of the United States in particular, to understand Bitcoin and hold a lot and care, and be ready to take the opposing argument when the Brad Sherman’s of the world come for your Bitcoin.

Cory Klippsten:                  We just need to make sure that there’s lot of Senator Warren’s and Crapos’s’ out there to argue the counterpoint and to be able to stand there armed and ready with a lot of great memes, and a lot of great arguments, and a lot of constituents prompting them to push forward on their probate coin agenda.

Brady:                  Yup. Absolutely, man. Absolutely. I think we can just mic drop it right there. I think that’s a perfect way to end it. Really, thank you so much for coming on. This was a ton of fun. I will certainly be cheering on and using GiveBitcoin. I think it’s a great idea and mission, and I hope and think it will become a tremendous success, man.

Cory Klippsten:                  Yeah, we hope so too man. We love slanging that Bitcoin, man. We just want to sell a lot of it.

Brady:                  Hell yeah. Hell yeah. Get it out there, man. Education-

Cory Klippsten:                  GiveBitcoin number go up.

Brady:                  That’s right. GiveBitcoin number go up. We can all be on board with that, I think.

Cory Klippsten:                  Awesome.

Brady:                  All right man. Thanks again. Take care, dude.

Cory Klippsten:                  Thanks, Brady.

Brady:                  All right, all right, all right. Thanks again to Cory for joining me today. So, what do you all think about GiveBitcoin? What do you all think about the conversation we just had? Lots of great stuff raised, especially toward the end there about Bitcoin’s prospects, about the macro-economic situation, how things are going to play out. Let us know your thoughts about any and all of those things on Bitcoin Twitter. Cory is @coryklippstein at C-O-R-Y K-L-I-P-P-S-T-E-N. GiveBitcoin is @Give_Bitcoin, and I of course, I’m @CitizenBitcoin.

Brady:                  You can support the podcast by sharing it out on Bitcoin Twitter or share with your family and friends. In fact, send them some Bitcoin and Bitcoin education with GiveBitcoin, and then tell them to subscribe to the Citizen Bitcoin podcast and we’ll help you turn them into wisened hodlers.

Brady:                  All right, before I go, my open-source shout out for this week is Zap. Jack Maller’s lightning wallet project has evolved into one of the most important Bitcoin opensource projects. Just yesterday, the Zap project hit 1000 stars on GitHub. They’ve built an incredible open-source community around this project. Zap is now available on iOS, Android, Linux, Mac OS, and Windows. Just connect to your L&D node to get started. You can support the project by joining the Zap, GitHub and Slack to help test beta releases, request features, provide feedback, and of course, coding. So, yeah, that’s it for this one. Take care out there Bitcoiners, wherever you happen to be in the world.

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